S10E3 - Using communities and taking breaks with Montserrat Cano

Welcome back to the Makelife Work Podcast with me side jobling. I am an engineering manager by day, parent of two at night, and I still managed to find time for side projects. In between all that. This week on season ten of the podcast, I am talking to Monsarat Kano SEO and digital marketing expert from Spain. Monsarrat reached out through a mutual look acquaintance, Simon Cox, who boosted my suit, and we got chatting about her personal situation and how she worked and all that sort of stuff. And then we decided to arrange a recording to share some of those tips and techniques she uses to manage her work life balance. So let's get into it. This is making life work with Monsarrat Canoe.

So, welcome along, Monsarrat. How are you?

Thank you for having me today. I'm Curb. Thank you. How are you doing? How's your day been so far?

My day is going pretty good. I'm taking a nice little late lunch just to enjoy this conversation, but yeah, I'm really pleased that you reached out and I'm really looking forward to find out more about how you find that difficult balance with your work life and everything else in between.

Yeah, I think it's the hot topic, really. It's not AI, it's not just Gpt-3 nor anything. I think it's balancing work and life in general is the hottest topic at the moment.

It's been an ongoing debate, I think, especially through the pandemic, because everything was adjust. But yeah, I'm always curious to find out how other people do find that balance. I know it's difficult.

It's trial and error, I think.

Oh, very good. It is.

I know it really depends. I hate saying it depends, but it really does depends mostly on circumstances because 2020 is not the same as 2023 so far, or even parts of 2023 were different to others during the year.

Sure.

So it's just trying to adapt to them, but also having very clear in your mind what your priorities are and being flexible enough to try and attend them. This is easier said than done. So this is the reason why I keep on saying is, yeah, this is the reason why it is trial and error. Because you never know exactly what is going to happen when.

Absolutely. I think we've learned through the years, trolling and error is probably a healthier way to approach life. You're not going to get it right every time.

More relaxed as well.

It can be depends on your outlook on that.

Yeah. From a mental perspective, because you don't kind of think, okay, things have to happen like this at all times. And the fact is, sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. Just don't screech that idea. But then you find that you are happy where you are.

Yeah, exactly. We have ran ahead really quickly and I feel like we need to rewind a little bit to find out a bit more about yourself. Could you tell me and our lovely listeners what it is you do for a living and what that actually means, because I think there might be a few little nuances around what that actually entails.

Yeah, well, at the moment, I am an international SEO and digital marketing consultant. So basically, digital marketing strategy is what I do for a living, and that involves mostly SEO, project management, and all strategic areas around there.

Okay, so digital marketing, SEO, that comes very closely in hand. Is it specifically SEO marketing that you focus on, or do you feed it into other areas like social media stuff as well?

Social media comes into play sometimes, and I do advise on that whenever it's necessary, particularly when it comes to integrated marketing. So my specialization, my first specialism is SEO, and this is what I have mostly done during the years, but I have also done integrated marketing strategies. So, for example, if there has been a campaign, I have deployed the means so that all channels are integrated, or I have advised others on how to do so.

Right. Wow. I mean, it sounds very clever and intelligent stuff that's going on there, and very complicated as well.

I'm not sure about the cleverness. I think it's more what is appropriate at that moment in time. But one thing for sure is very exciting because we don't have a crystal ball.

No.

We don't know what's going to happen. My main thing is to get the basics right.

Sure.

Just so we can later on.

Yeah. And we all know Google ever shifting goalposts whenever they change their algorithms in the background. And you have to change the way you you organize your thinking, I guess.

Yeah. Or there's a sudden change in the way people behave. Prime example is 2020. People started to buy absolutely everything and everything online, including toilet paper and jewelry and makeup as well. I was so impressed when I read this by the time I was working for an online jewelry, and it was really interesting to see how the turnover actually was quite high.

Sure.

I can imagine very strict objectives for that year that were set up before the pandemic stroke. And we could do it partly because of this change in the way people behaved.

Well, I think we learned a lot through 2020. Like the pivot, I think, was one of the key words that was used that year. We have to change the way we work. We have to change all our marketing strategies. We have to change our product line. Okay, good look, but you were deep in the middle of that, I guess, with trying to provide to your clients how to optimize that experience.

I have to be very strong. Very strong, because everybody was running around me. At this point in time, I find that people are more settled, perhaps that's the words, but still trying to find their feet somehow. Post pandemic period during 2020. I had to work around just to try and be sometimes even defensive, because I was leading a team at that moment in time and I found myself defending, being kind of on the defensive side of things so that my team could actually work and myself could actually work because everybody was running around so crazy. I guess it's just human nature, isn't it? Some people are able to keep calm and compulse at all times, or most times, and some others are just unable to.

It feels like that fight or flight analogy is coming in here. You say people either embrace the opportunity or run away from it, and that's human nature, as you say.

No, indeed. So this is marketing, isn't it? It's all about adapting to human nature as well, studying it, seeing what actually takes people, et cetera, et cetera. But it's just not marketing. It's also human relations. So we were talking about engineering and personalities. Personalities do come into play at all times, and some people are more sociable than others, some people are more empathetic than others, so other people are clean dogs, none of those things. So it's just POWs, being able to manage all that. And that can be rather complicated and can eat up in your own personal life as well, because if you have problems at work or you find some things at work complicated, you have all this noise in your head at all times, even during tipping hours. It's something that you need to try and avoid. And 2020 was a brand example. I was just trying to avoid all that. And well, you've got Sports, you've got Netflix as well. You've got talking to family and friends as the best resources to avoid thinking too much about problems, particularly work problems, because you work so that you are able to maintain yourself, to sustain yourself, but also to be able to grow from a personal perspective. Everybody wants to grow, everybody likes to grow. Everybody likes to think that they have achieved something and they have progressed. But just thinking about problems at all times is not a good thing because it doesn't allow you to enjoy life.

No, but like you say, you do need to try to have that positive mentality, really, to think I can get through this, or I need to get through this, how do I get through this? And as you mentioned, 2020 threw it at us in all directions, professionally, personally, communally, all those sort of angles made.

It very difficult sometimes what I have found is that you need to get some help from others is absolutely necessary. And it's not something that you actually think about it first, because if you're independent enough to be able to manage everything around your work and your personal life and everything, you don't think about asking for help. It's like, how do I ask for help? Who do I need to ask for help? Who should I be asking for help, but start to just having somebody around, just chat about all these things or already specific aspects of all that, which is what we do in mentoring. I have done mentoring before simply because there have been plenty of times in my life where I should have asked for help, but I didn't know where to get it, or I didn't even think I needed any help. This was more like an afterthought. And this is the reason why mentoring is really important, particularly in challenging times. We shouldn't be afraid of asking for help at all. Asking for help to support us to go through a specific time or a specific situation rather than all the time, like your mom holding hands through, et cetera. It's not that this is more like a new approach, thinking about aspects of your problems or your situation that you didn't think about. And I have found that very useful. But even just sometimes chatting to a friend five minutes and you realize, well.

This is not that complicated or unique. I think I found myself when I was in some challenging times through the pandemic, actually. Just chatting to a friend that you're not spoken to for a while, you realize, oh, you're going through the same or similar. And it immediately offloads, that challenge, that burden. Okay, we're in it together. How are you getting through this? I'm not. Okay, me neither. But what have you tried? And then you start mentoring each other. Like, what are the options through that? And it gets very coachy in the way, but at least you are helping each other and sharing the load, as you should be doing generally in life.

And you do that in a relaxed environment, safe environment.

Exactly.

You're talking to somebody you actually trust. Thing is that, on the other hand, we all have our own problems, so we need to avoid it. What I found is that we need to avoid it. Relying on the same people all the time to load our province to you. Because I don't know, there have been times I don't know if it happened to you, but when I finally opened myself up and started talking about issues or things that I was going through, or I had been going through, et cetera, I just found myself repeating and boring. So I kind of put myself in the shoes of those people who might actually listen to me at all times. Why do they need you here? Are we talking about myself all the time?

Yeah. You have to be careful, the people to choose in that situation and have a safe environment around you. Knowing from a context, from previous experiences, these people have helped me. They might go to they might rock sometimes. And then you've got people that you're not quite sure about, so you might go safer on the conversations with them sometimes.

Yeah. Even mentoring, when you do mentoring and you are getting head on to a specific thing. Even in those situations, the mentor has some kind of guidance. So it's not like a normal conversation with a friend, it's a guided conversation, so to speak. So I think this is the importance of mentoring war. Even psychologists have read quite a lot about this over the last couple of years. And important to these aspects, like mentoring, coaching, but even a child with a psychologist from time to time, it's not to do with maths, it's to do with how do I come out of this?

But the great idea just to speak to those professions, to kind of get their perspective on it.

It's nothing bad. I mean, I haven't really sought any help from that because I didn't feel I needed to. But I do have friends, psychologists, brilliant. What? Psychologists who have been treating people through anxiety, period of stress, mostly deduct from the pandemic and everything around it, even if it was not in 2020, maybe it was only 21, maybe it was even just now. And it's all about stress, how to face going back to some kind of normality. I'm strictly afraid of using that word.

Normal, defined normal, some consistency. Let's say something a bit more average that we can work with, with less streams in place.

In my case, it has been working, work has been a lifesaver. Not from a financial perspective, which obviously is the case, but also from a mental perspective because I love doing what I do and I'm very glad that online keeps being that because it means that I can keep on growing and applying my skill set and being busy. In that respect, that's good.

So in that sense, what does your typical day look like? What kind of activities do you tend to go through? And the timing that you do that.

Every single day is different. It really is. It really depends on what I have, on the number of clients I have worked. So what I normally do is having a calendar of activities to do, list, if like, and then I go through it and see what I can do today, what is necessary for me to start today but not necessary to finish that because maybe it's more complex for something that needs to be done over time, for whatever reason. And then I just kind of go through it as well. It's been rather interesting over the last couple of years or so because as you know, I used to live in the UK and I have been living there for 19 and a half years or so. This is quite a long time. And suddenly I had to go back home and everything and things are different, things are super different from every single point of view. So right now what I do, I divide my time into working prospecting and then personal and professional growth.

All right, good mix.

It's a good mix, but it's also very tiring because all this involves finding out about admin matters. I put everything which is to do with taxes and regulations and rules of all sorts that I was not even aware of before, of course.

But having those three hats obviously the context switching there's an energy drain element to that as well. You need to make sure that you're not overdoing it switching between those three modes quite regularly.

Surely if someone answers the side obviously as freelancer, I need to be on the ball both times and really need to understand what's going on from my professional perspective. So anything, for example, those algorithms have done all that kind of things or for example, announcements that were made yesterday and the day before. Those are the kind of things I need to be aware of immediately, at all times. But also I need to be aware of other aspects that are rather complicated because if I am working for clients, I can't be prospecting. I can't do any marketing of myself. I can't write because one of my goals for this year is going back to writing. Writing articles about marketing or about life or about anything because I love writing. But if I am working, nothing that that is I mean, just to be honest, nothing that I do takes me five minutes or takes five minutes in general never does. So if I'm doing that, if I'm working then I cannot do many other things. So there have been times when I have realized that I have missed opportunities and you know what, that's okay because I know that while I was missing those opportunities I was producing, I was working and that made me feel all right. But then on the other hand, there is this anxiety. What if those opportunities would have brought me any more clients or long term housework? Which is what I am seeking. You see this constant thinking in your head too much so having a variety of things to do during my day that helps me with those thinking.

You do rotate those sort of different disciplines and focuses through the day. It's not like you'll spend one day doing one and the next day doing another. You'll try to mix it in some shape.

I try to mix them but it's not always possible. It's not because when you are working for a company, you work for that company and that's about it. And then if you want to, you can have a side hustle or a side project or working with other clients or anything. But if you are working and directing your own company then you are doing so many things at the same time.

Totally. And when you're freelancing, you are pretty much running the business as well as doing the actual work, aren't you?

Yes, exactly. That's what I mean.

Yeah, I don't envy you in that sense. That sounds really too much for me to cope with personally. But I am always impressed by anyone that is managing that so well.

I'm not sure if I'm managing that very well. All I think is that I need to keep on going, okay? Because if I stop then everything around me keeps on going and then I have to play catch up, okay? And that creates more anxiety. This is a new situation to me and it is one of the aspects of my coming back home that has taken me the longest to realize and then adapt to the fact that I am not an employee or anything, that I am actually directing a company which is my own freelancing business. I don't know, it's just different.

A strong discipline and how long have you been doing this now?

For two years now.

Okay, so you started this during the pandemic?

Well, mid 2021, but before I used to have a job, I used to work for different companies and then I used to have people coming to me for advice or I used to work on their websites as when they land.

So you had to completely adjust the way you work post pandemic in a way because it was just sort of coming out at that point and found a new rhythm that worked for you.

At the moment I am trying to outflow up to it and I'm not really sure about anything. All that I know is that I need to keep on going. This is a rhythm that was imposed to me rather than me imposing it, rather than me building it up and I feel I need to keep on going and still adapt to and find out how best to living out of all this situation without losing my mind. And then also necessary aspects of life which I am learning now to force myself to do them, just forcing myself to do just to be away from the computer or from a book or from a mobile or I go to the theater. It's been funny because I didn't think it was going to be this busy but around here where I live, others there's been to theater and sometimes there's so for us where very cute companies that have to be coming to perform, I wasn't very surprised to find out. So I thought why not embracing it? Why not? Everything is sometimes I just feel guilty because I could have been working on another website or finding out about something that the cute cried about or I could be presenting more or maybe there are some events that I wasn't aware of but then at the same time now I'm enjoying this theater play.

Absolutely. I think there's always something else we could be doing on top of what we do anyway. But you do need that time away from a screen, enjoying the rest of the world with theater shows or sports musicals, whatever is available to you. And it's amazing what a difference it makes when you do get that time to yourself and appreciate the other art forms, because you might bring that back and go, I've got a different outlook or how I want to perceive this now.

And if anything, just because it gives you a clarity of mind, because my best ideas come when I'm going to sleep, or when I am having dinner somewhere, or when I am watching a movie or something. It's just that I'm finding it still difficult, very hard to actually get to do it. So my advice if somebody wants to hear this is please force yourself into doing that because it's the best that you can do for your mental health.

I think definitely, yeah, we can always buy off more than we can chew. But you do need to reset and get away and just say, look after yourself in that sense.

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If I am already in bed, I turn around, close my eyes, that's it.

You just close it? That's it?

That's it. The following day I may actually remember. So that's fine. But if I am doing something else and something pops up, it could be a good idea or just a workable idea. I reach out normally for my notebook and a bank, which I always carry with me, and grab the ideas down. I don't really think all the ideas that I have of those moments in time are good, but it's something that maybe allows me to see whether I could explore whether there is a new avenue for me to explore, something perhaps discuss with a client or something that I could write about, or something I could talk about.

It's interesting how you go to your notepad. I'm terrible for going to a digital form, so I'll write it in a to do item or something like that, but that's easily lost or organized into a background of nothing with a notepad. You would always pick that up and go, oh yeah, I forgot made that note. And that might spark more inspiration. Or you go, what a stupid idea that was, but at least I made a note of it. It's knowing that it's there that you can reference at any time. That's what I like about a notebook.

Yeah. It's funny how we are all different or digital. We are all working in the digital space and we all lied, talking about alcohol, dates and computers, SEO, et cetera, et cetera. But then we've got notebooks. Whenever we go to events, we've got notebooks that are not parts they actually give us. Just like this one here. When I was organizing, helping to organize the Measure Cup event in London, or any Google events, they used to give out note plans. It's interesting. That's very useful. I've got a few and they are so useful that you'll get used all of them good.

Exactly. And I think that's why I think even when you go to a conference on my diversity moment, when you're organizing a conference or an event, a notepad is a great way to kind of remind people that that happened. But also you are going to use it a lot more often than another gadget or a sticker or something that's going to get thrown into the back of a cupboard. Normally.

Yeah. What I have also found is that if I go to an event or you can have got this idea just for me to so that it sticks to my mind, I write it down, all of it. And maybe I don't use it anymore, but then maybe I go back and read through it and I get another idea, but if I don't write it down, I may even forget.

But sometimes the good ones come back because they are so good. You're like, oh, yes, I thought about this three weeks ago and I want to go into this a bit more now.

Yeah. I do hate it when I think I have an idea and I am unable to write it down at the moment in time, and then I may remember it afterwards, but I remember the fact that I had an idea, not the idea itself.

Afterwards one, I had a great idea. What was it?

Maybe that idea was related to something else. And that kind of comes up when I am doing something, when I'm in another situation, then at the moment in time when I really want to write it down so that it doesn't go away. I can't remember you guys. I do hate it. So that's the reason why I use notebook.

That's a great idea. And you mentioned earlier, like getting your inspiration and your thoughts and sort of understanding what's going on in the industry, how do you kind of factor that into your kind of day or week at all?

You mean updates?

Yeah, if you like, say, talking about Google updates or whatever else it is across the industry and SEO world, how do you keep on top of that? And what's your sort of approach to make sure you don't go down the rabbit holes too far.

I've got the habit of starting my day reading about the latest development because with the time difference there might have been some difference, some things that might have happened the night before while I was sleeping during breakfast time. If I'm alone, I tried to read about those. Okay, and then I start work and when I take a break, coffee or something, I read a little bit more about whatever it is that might be happening. Or maybe when I get stuck, when I get stuck I tend to do something else that I'm trying. So one of those things that I tend to do at all times is just checking LinkedIn or Twitter or a publication, any publication. Or sometimes I am in telegraph groups or other marketers. I check what they do because perhaps they are asking a question that I can answer, which is a great way to relax as well, to get away from what you are doing and come back and have fresh eyes. Because you have been focusing on something else for somebody who was in need of an answer. And yeah, you just kind of reply and do your best, and then you just go back to my day to day and then kind of repeat. So I am an animal of habit and this is what I tend to do.

That's brilliant. And it sounds like a lot of networks through all those social media groups and forums and whatever else to kind of use not only your education perspective but support network as well for helping each other.

And this is the right way for the industry to progress because we don't support each other. It's just difficult. Right when I was working in the UK, one of my first jobs and my first project was for the UK Department for Work and Pensions. I was working as part of the so called at the moment in time. It changed a couple of times and it was the Analytical Services Division, I think it was, which was composed of statisticians social researchers and operational researchers. At that moment in time, the operational researchers were a new industry like SEO, this new wish, it has been around for I don't know, 20 years, perhaps 25, something like that. And but back in 2002 when I started working then, this was actually quite new. So one of my first digital projects was around giving them visibility, integral disability, because this is what they wanted. Just so they queued, actually have a little bit more leverage and they are findings would actually take basically more into account because they are as analysts, their job was to advise others not to actually do the job, to advise them, to make sure that other people would actually take that advice. And it was very interesting just to see how everything was developing in there because he was developing quite quickly, used. To have more and more people coming in and everything, but most people in the world didn't even know about the operation of research and then they used this project to give them more visibility and also more credibility. And it was clear this is pretty much what is happening in these days with SEO. We went to so many conferences, we support each other. I remember back in the day, operational researchers used to support each other and they think this is the way they actually managed to take off, if that makes sense. So I really want to do exactly the same thing for this industry.

I've noticed, I think we met through Simon Cox who's another prevalent member of the SEO community and he was only through I've realized that you've got quite a nice close knit community who help each other and you could outdo each other. It's definitely in that industry where you're like oh no, I want to get higher than you in the rankings, or whatever it is, but there's none of that awful toxic environment from what I've gathered.

Yeah, it's not like finance, it's not like video editing, it's not like law. I mean, they have needed to dead work in those industries and they are so different. They are so terribly different. Obviously we don't go to events or we don't go to social media and start spilling the beans'about, secrets or revenue for the companies that we are working with because it's interesting to be but also you would actually breach your contract. Apart from the fact that it's actually quite nasty in other places, this is not what everybody's trying to know. Other people's business and secrets makes you feel like they are not progressing whatsoever.

No. And with your kind of continuous education progression mindset that it works well with that, I guess, because you just you naturally want to share what you learn and help each other in the process.

Yeah, absolutely. Because this is the way you actually learn as well. You share and you learn. And sometimes some people actually do share a lot more than others because maybe they have more experiences or just think about consultants. We can choose to get a variety, a bigger variety of clients, and this is the case. But maybe in house Seos don't care. The variety of things that other people do get as well on their day to day work. But still the learnings are more it's just very good to be good to see what other people are doing and how they are doing it. That's very exciting. It really is very exciting. This is not what I saw in other industries, including technology, funny enough.

Yeah. I do find the tech industry generally is very caring and supportive and community driven. There are pockets of it where it's not so friendly, but we're luckily in that space where we don't have to suffer that. Fortunately.

Yeah, I'm happy. I feel I have chosen the right industry to work with.

Good, I'm glad. And I'm getting good energy from what you're trying to achieve, from your role as well.

It's brilliant because I can feel that we are doing something good for the world or for the company that I'm working with. I feel my impact is in there. Everybody is impacting with their work, with their day to day learning, et cetera, et cetera. But I feel so happy about this. It's just difficult to put it into work because most people want to go to work and then go back home and forget about it. To be honest. In my case, it's not always like that. It's usually not like that which also contributes as well to anxiety because obviously if something is not resolved by the time I go for dinner but maybe I start thinking about it, it doesn't make sense.

It does.

Just coming back to what we were talking about earlier. So I have to be very careful not to speak too much about word stuff. Then I can help thinking about events that might be happening, like yesterday, for example. It's just interesting, isn't it?

Yeah, I think there's lots of you can take away from what you suggested there. So just taking all into consideration like your ways of working and your lifestyles, what one piece of advice would you give anyone else who is struggling in a way or how they might want to improve the ways of working?

I would say if you're struggling, you.

Should probably take a little bit of.

A break away from your daily activities as much as possible. I'm not saying drop it off at this moment in time, but just kind of plan a couple of days away, maybe with a good book, with your notepad as well, and think about what has been working well or not, which can be rather difficult because I have often been asked what has worked for me or goals have achieved, et cetera. But because I'm used to kind of being on the go at all times without stopping to think, my mind would actually become blank and I couldn't answer the question. And that's the reason why I needed to take a break, perhaps just to kind of collect and gather my thoughts. And this is what I would advise everyone to do. Because sometimes if you keep going, if you just don't know whether what you are doing, you just can't see beyond what you are doing. And it is important that you actually do that because for example, in the last recession I remember very well, I got laid off because of the recession.

Because of the economic situation.

And up until that moment in time I had been going on all the time. I didn't know exactly what I needed to do, what I wanted to do. So I took a little bit of a break, first break for a couple of weeks and then I started to think what I wanted to do, what I definitely didn't want to do, and I started to work in that direction. It is not an easy thing to do. So maybe just talk to others as well, because sometimes voicing your own concerns or your own thoughts can help you.

Out quite a lot.

Totally. But I do like your original point about taking a break, because it needs to be weak. It continues to be Dave. Just literally a five or ten minute walk away from your screen or the situation really does help change perspective occasionally.

Yes. And just talking briefly about the weather with someone just helps you to keep things in perspective.

Absolutely.

Or even cooking. Just get a hobby. Another way of doing things, get a hobby. My main hobby is cooking. I love cooking, I really do. I don't do it nowadays as much as I used to before, but I just love it. And it's such a great way to keep your mind focused and away from everything else, because otherwise you would cut yourself, you would cut your finger, everything would burn the oval and perhaps if you don't pay attention. So your mind has to be on.

Whatever it is that you are doing.

Yeah. That's a good eye shower, actually, because I do enjoy cooking myself. And you can't get it wrong, because otherwise everyone suffers in the process.

Including your stomach.

Well, yeah, exactly. But at least it's a nice outcome because I want to eat that and I want to enjoy it. It's an extra level of goodness out of that whole situation.

Yeah.

What do you like to cook?

I like to try to cook Indian food. I'm not the best at it, but I like the flavors that come with it. What about you?

I have tried my hand at Indian food as well. The best. Either it has been edible.

Let's put it like this.

It was everything that I did was edible, so it has been respect. I'm not sure whether my friends from India or of Indian descent go ahead.

I'd like to think what they say of mine, that's for sure.

I like experimenting quite a lot.

Yes.

Trying to think the usual cake, the usual lemon yogurt cake. What if I put some, I don't know, some chocolate seeds or what if I use some fruits as well? Some actual fruits? Or what if I do this, what if I do that? And more often than not turn out to be okay.

It's amazing, really, isn't it? It goes back to your earlier point. A trolley narrower. You got to experiment with these things just to see what works or doesn't.

Yeah. It definitely is trial and error, particularly with baking. Baking is all trial and error. And you have to be super careful with those experiments, because if we don't get the quantity, rights, timing, flower, et cetera, et cetera, you might not actually eat anything proper.

You do have to be careful.

But you're right, there might be a lot of error in this, but at least we're trying.

Not exactly. I mean, if we don't try.

I.

Don'T know, you might not even like traveling, but what if you actually go to Rome and have a good time?

Exactly. And the people around you will appreciate it as well.

Yeah, it's like you're going to England. I went to the UK because I really wanted to try my luck.

Okay.

Practice traveling. I really wanted to meet other people. And that was amazing. It was under tough times, but it was amazing.

I'm sure. But yeah, you must have learned a lot from that experience as well.

Yes. More open minded than I was before. Not that I wasn't, but it was even more open minded because there were realities and that I was just not used to. Things that happened to me, things that were happening to other people as well. And then this is where you actually think that life is neither black or white. There's lots of gray is in between, which is a good theory, but then in practice, it works very well.

It does. No, you're right. I could talk to you all day, Monsey, but I'm mindful of both our time. If people want to reach out to you and have a chat or understand a little bit more about your little tricks of the trade, how do we get hold of you?

I am on Twitter and LinkedIn there, but I also have my own website, which is getting published very soon. People can reach out through the forum there. It's [email protected].

Cool. We got the link in the show notes for anyone that wants to visit that.

Thank you very much.

And I'm going to chat to anyone who might need a little bit. We just want to share their experiences. There are so many experts out there, or people who are migrants, returned migrants, who are in the same situation as I am. And it's rather difficult, let me tell you. It's rather difficult to sometimes deal with all the situations that pop up. It's just not easy. It's another reality I wasn't used to.

But you seem to have found a better pattern and rhythm to your workflow now and continually will.

I feel. I'm starting to.

I'm glad. I'm really glad. Thank you for your time, mate. I really do appreciate this and maybe revisit in the future and see how things are going.

That should be fantastic. Thank you so much for inviting me over.

Pleasure, absolute pleasure. It's all mine. But thank you again, Monte.

Thank you. I love you, Jake.

And you.

Huge thanks to Monte Rap for her time today. I'm sure you enjoyed her insights and thoughts as much as I did. You can reach out to her on Twitter, LinkedIn and Mastered on or visit her website, [email protected]. Remember to get in touch if you'd like to join the conversation with your own stories. And please give us a like or review in Apple, Spotify or whichever app you use for your podcast. I'll be back in a few weeks time with another guest talking about how they find that work life balance.